What a symbolic image, a thought comes to mind, recalling Wałęsa's life and the recent history of our two nations, Lithuania and Poland. It is history and its heroes that we want to talk about with the founder of Solidarność and one of the heroes Poland's most recent history. We start, however, with a bicycle that Wałęsa was presented nine years ago by Lithuania's then Foreign Minister Antanas Valionis.
– Do you still ride the bike?
– I do and I like it. Other bikes break down, but the Lithuanian one still works – it is a well-made bike. I do not know who made it, but let's thank them for a job well done.
I received the bike as a gift when Lithuania joined the European Union. It was even endorsed by the Seimas. What was it for? When I was president, Lithuania kept asking me to exert more pressure on my government to build additional border checkpoints. I would reply that there'd soon be no borders and I'd be able to ride into Lithuania on a bike without even so much as slowing down. When Lithuania joined the EU, they recalled how much money had been saved just because I hadn't instructed to put up more checkpoints.
I still keep photos from the ceremony. It's the best gift I've ever received.
– For a long time, Poland and Lithuania were on excellent terms with one another. But not so much lately. Why do you think?
– I've always seen Lithuanians as a brotherly nation. I do not know how the brothers got into fight, but whatever happens, we're doomed to stay in one another's company. We live in one family, one union, we must recognize this fact and work to resolve all issues.
Our world should not be built on Polish or Lithuanian patriotism – this is the old way of thinking. We must become patriots of Europe.
Yes, we share a complicated past. So political actors of lesser ability fight the past and foreign agents instead of drawing up new platforms and resolving conflicts. It's the easiest way. This is bound to happen, particularly between neighbours, but there'll soon appear more people working for the sake of the present and the future, while leaving history to historians. We're heading towards a unified Europe, where there's no place for fears of the past. It is all up to us, let's resolve lingering issues.
– How could we improve Polish-Lithuanian relations?
– Bad leaders are so weak that, for want of anything better to say, they have to dig into history, pick fights with the past and its mistakes, look for refuge in the 17th century. But if everyone of us just said “These are old issues, you're speaking rubbish,” these people would disappear faster.
– What does one have to bear in mind in order to understand a Pole?
– The world will always be divided. Divisions used to impair development and interfere with life. The last division we witnessed was between the communist and the capitalist blocks.
Europe of today is inclined to give up such kind of thinking. We overthrow walls and build the European state. National interests fade in comparison. Europe should be our number one priority. We should consider what we, as part of the European state, could do to further its development, security, prosperity.
We have our own culture, traditions and we do not wish to give them up to others, we wish to preserve all that. We must take care of things that we can preserve and give up those that hinder development.
I do not know if you can recall this one case. Belarus refused to let a Polish aircraft pass over its territory. If other countries started behaving like that, we'd all close up within our small states. And that's something we cannot afford. Technology has advanced immensely – both in the good sense and the bad – so our generation must start expanding organizational structures. We are doing something, but that's all in the old style, old modes of behaviour.
– What do you mean by “the old style”?
– It is a way of thinking which is based on what is best for and which one is more important – Lithuania or Poland? When one dwells on long-forgotten mistakes rather than creating new modes of behaviour. This kind of thinking depresses growth and corrupts tastes. Our world should not be built on Polish or Lithuanian patriotism – this is the old way of thinking. We must become patriots of Europe.
From the era of territories we waged wars about, we're now transitioning to an era of intellect, information, globalization. These are entirely new times, requiring different structures and different approaches – whereas we stick stubbornly to our old habits.
– If we are to become patriots of Europe, what does Europe mean to you?
– Globalization, travelling without borders, striving to even out developmental disparities among countries, even out social inequalities, equalize taxation and quality of road network, better healthcare services – for example, the ability to go to whichever hospital we choose. We cannot afford that just yet, but we can still draw up an agenda.
The first key question – what kind of economy we should build. Of course, it should be based on neither the communist, nor the capitalist system.
We can do one thing this year, something more next year, and, in five years, a third problem will be gone. If we are to be one state, this is how a state should function, otherwise we'll be locked in conflicts that won't do any good to anyone. We're all paying dearly for them, so we must change our ways of thinking.
We should put politicians in an air balloon and let them take a look at Europe from above, let them see differences between countries – one was blessed with abundant water supplies, another has mountains, but less fertile soil. That's when we'll be able to say that everyone is needed. I do not know how we could calculate it, but we must make sure that being in Europe is worth everyone's while and that everyone is equally appreciated.
We should study which country produces what. And do it now – we're living in an age where the European interest matters, not Lithuania's or Poland's. Europe is above all else. We must build new structures, because those that were good in the end of the 20th century no longer work.
I personally struggle to find answers to three key questions. The first one – what kind of economy we should build. Of course, it should be based on neither the communist, nor the capitalist system. Protests in America and other countries were directed against capitalism. One note of consolation is that the protesters did not declaim the free market and private property. So the pillars of capitalism stay. Everything else must go.
The protesters' basic slogan was that unemployment was not politicians' fault, but that of capitalists. However, politicians must also bear responsibility for rampant unemployment. Someone once tried to convince me that we cannot afford many things. But mass unemployment is exactly what we cannot afford – neither in Poland and Lithuania, nor in Europe and the world.
In the previous era, we would engage in racing one another. One country would conquer the other – so the weak ones would be left behind. We do not engage in such race anymore, which means we should direct our attention to those with limited opportunities, the unfortunate ones. We must create programmes for them, structures, give them work – everyone will profit from that.
This is what today's politicians should think about. We cannot dwell on history, we must occupy ourselves with the task of employing the unemployed. These are my thoughts on the first question.
Once, we massively feared God and our neighbours. This order was what we had in common. What will happen, when we no longer fear God nor our neighbours?
The second question has to do with democracy. The old democracy was limited by national borders and gave rights to people within them. The new democracy should be tasked with various duties. Moreover, we cannot allow a football game and a boxing match take place in the same pitch at the same time. We must agree – do we fight with stones or deal peacefully?
Schools and universities should be ashamed for the fact that there are still people today who fight with stones. In the previous era, that was acceptable, I myself did it, but not today.
And the third key question – on what foundation are we going to build all that? One half of the world tells me – on freedom. Personal freedom, free market, and the law. The other half says: “We won't build anything, egotism and cunning will take you in, sooner or later.”
We must create the new world on the basis of values. Nor religion, because we'd have to include values of disparate religions. We should come up with a decalogue of civil laws, telling us how to raise kids, how to teach at schools, how to sentence in courts. The ten commandments for the foundation. Then we'd be able to build a beautiful world.
We're living through a transitional period now – from the era of separate states, a failed era, to one which was launched by the European state and globalization. The new era demands making adjustments to platforms and structures, as we're still employing antiquated ones.
– But the history of Europe is the history of Christianity. God, however, has abandoned Europe – He has been struck out of the EU Constitution, crosses are banished from schools. How does that correspond to your ideas of beautiful Europe?
– I am glad you touched upon this subject. Once, we massively feared God and our neighbours. This order was what we had in common. What will happen, when we no longer fear God nor our neighbours? Do you know what will happen? I do.
The working masses will seek justice and destroy everything that has been built. They will demand: “Where does you grandfather's money come from?” You'll reply: “From my great-grandfather.” And where did he get it? It's better not to admit that you are in possession of something from not entirely legitimate acquisitions. Workers will desire justice and will overturn the capitalist system which somehow worked, supported by the Decalogue.
Now, as these values die out, we find ourselves in anarchy. It will be difficult to halt the process that has already begun. Unless we manage to find answers to these three questions in time. If we do, great. But we must discuss them thoroughly. And we need new politicians to create new platforms and structures. Moreover, we should hurry up with the discussions, before we're swept by great revolutions that are possibly about to start.
– Do you think there's such a thing as a European identity in the first place?
– It does exist, but we should localize it. This identity existed a thousand years ago, it existed two thousand years ago. It is now a new identity, because we live in a new era. Not one of territories, but one of intellect and globalization.
I will enter history as a man who ended the era of country partitions, wars, revolutions and who opened up a possibility, but who hasn't built anything new and probably won't.
Once upon a time, the Pole's identity was his patriotism – war with Germans and Russians. His heroism. The more people we've killed, the bigger the monument we've built for ourselves. Our grandchildren and great-grandchildren will wonder: “What was grandpa doing – instead of going to talk, he was erecting monuments for himself, and we now have to pay taxes for him killing more people.”
We shouldn't have warred – we should have talked. Did we have to kill? That's how things worked, we did it, but our grandchildren won't. They'll build a monument in the shipyards of Gdansk where we, under strenuous conditions but peacefully and wisely, solved a conflict. So it is impossible to give an unambiguous reply to the question of the European identity.
– And yet – who's your greatest Polish hero?
– You know, it depends on the period you wish to talk about.
– Today.
– Today, I look for people who say wise things, make good decisions, do not shun difficult subjects, are honest, support creation, and agree that the past does not matter.
– Are there people like that?
– Yes. There are, even though they are little-known, because old convictions still prevail. We still prefer swards and shouts. We still embrace old ways of thinking. It's hard to name a hero. I could name a hero of demagogy, one of the old economy, of the new economy...
– One of history. What about Tadeusz Kościuszko – is he a hero?
– He's from a different era. He shot, he killed. Our grandchildren will not tolerate that. They'll say: “Why on earth did he do it?”
– He fought for freedom of Lithuania and Poland.
– It was the era of territories, when we'd take land from others, when we'd get conquered, turned into agents in order to betray. Such were the times. Kościuszko was a hero of those times. But they have ended.
Today, the new hero will be the one who manages to build good relations with Lithuania, the one who constructs a new reality we haven't seen before. Are there people like that? Doubtlessly, they exist, but they're little known, because the new era has just begun. We still need to fight things out in order to get to the essence.
– Are there politicians in Poland and Lithuania who are trying to work things out?
– I was an excellent rebel. I'm about to exit that era of scuffle. I managed to conclude those affairs. I managed to overthrow the old order and clear the way for a new one. But I did not and do not play a role in building the new order. I am not happy about it. I'd like to build. I'd like to contribute to the new order with my ideas.
I could have used a second term as president. I wanted to initiate the processes I am telling you about, but fate had it differently – I lost the election. Perhaps it wasn't time for me yet. I will enter history as a man who ended the era of country partitions, wars, revolutions and who opened up a possibility, but who hasn't built anything new and probably won't. I am too old now.
When I met German author Günter Grass, who was born here, and we exchanged books, I wrote to him: “To Danziger by birth – from Danziger by choice.”
It is hard to break the ice, ours is still an old-fashioned mentality. Take relations with Lithuania, for instance. What are we talking about? Having removed the border between Lithuania and Poland – are we to continue fighting? That's not the reason why I did it.
– What about Russia – is it no longer a threat to Lithuania and Poland?
– We are doomed to staying close to one another, so we'll realize, sooner or later, that Warsaw had better talk to Moscow directly rather than via Washington. Let's avoid conflicts with neighbours. As we run our countries, let's think about how we can accommodate others. It's like playing with Lego blocks. They can be used to build many things. Global standardization allows building great many things.
Russia grows increasingly aware that what was possible under Stalin – useful as it was – is not suitable for today. I might be easier to bark: “Listen, unless you dig me a ten-metre ditch, I'll shoot you in the head.” But such methods won't lead you anywhere today. It's better to cooperate with free countries rather than enslaved ones.
And Russia is coming to realize it, too. Russia of tomorrow is democratic Russia. The world needs it – but only as long as it is democratic, free. And Russia is moving in that direction, albeit more slowly, there still remains a great deal of injustice, so it moves at its own pace which is different from ours.
– What was the worst day of your life?
– It's still ahead of me. Until now, I've managed to crack all crossword puzzles – complex and easier ones. I've taken part in many events, I would not be able to pick just one strand, because without it, the rest would collapse. Everything I did, I did for the sake of a free Poland, free Lithuania, a different world. I haven't done anything superfluous.
– Which spot in Poland do you find most beautiful?
– I've never thought of that. I only know that I'm unable to make everything beautiful. However, if everything were beautiful, we'd have nothing to compare it with. There's no positive without the negative, no good without the evil, no beauty without ugliness. In fact, I like my entire country, I'd never consider moving elsewhere. For a short while, perhaps, I like seeing other places, but only temporarily. I'm a Pole and will stay here.
– In Gdansk?
– It's the city of my choice. I first came to Gdansk as a seven-grade student. We took a train that stunk of fish. I, coming from central Poland, hated the city. But I returned after a while – I had a ticket to Gdynia, but the train did not have a dining coach, so I got off onto a platform in order to get something to drink. And the train left, leaving me behind in Gdansk.
I've fallen in love with Gdansk and would not exchange it for any other city. I couldn't even say why. Perhaps because I've got a wife here, my children, this is where I've spent the best moments of my youth. It is the city of my choice. When I met German author Günter Grass, who was born here (Nobel Prize recipient whose best-known novel, The Tin Drum, is set in Gdansk, – 15min), and we exchanged books, I wrote to him: “To Danziger by birth – from Danziger by choice.” Grass is Danziger by birth and I am Danziger by choice.
– What place does Solidarność occupy in Poland today?
– The philosophy of Solidarność is simple – if you cannot bear the load yourself, ask for help. At the time, the load on Solidarność's back was the Soviet Union and communism. When we, students and soldiers, joined forces, when the Pope helped us come together, join in one prayer, we saw how numerous we were. And that was the solidarity that helped lift the load of communism.
Even back then I thought that not just Poland, but Europe and the world too, will need solidarity. But everyone bears a different load. I failed. We cannot forget all the people who remained there.
– Do you have any dreams? If so, what are they?
– I'd really like to go to inferno. I'm religious, a practising catholic, so for all my deeds, I'd like to be sent to inferno, because, as you may know, you can meet Stalin and Lenin in hell. They were generals, while I was but a simple brigadier, so they'd give orders and torture me for destroying communism. That is not funny. I'm a religious man.
– When are you taking a ride on your bike to Lithuania?
– I've lots to do, I cannot get away. I like Lithuania, there are so many pretty spots. We built Vilnius together – the city that antagonized and united us. That's something we share, I feel at home in Vilnius. And so I long for it. I'd go fishing in the Vilnia river. I will probably manage to come some day.
***
Rising up from the table, Wałęsa puts on his jacket for a group photo that his assistant takes with his iPad. The president inspects the image and instantly posts it on his blog. We bid our farewells. Our guides say we were lucky – the president was in excellent mood this morning.
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| Lechas Walęsa (centre) with his team, Virginijus Savukynas (second on the left) and Rimvydas Valatka (right). |
Dossier
Lech Wałęsa will turn 70 on 29 September this year.
In 1967 he started as an electrotechnician in Gdansk shipyards. In 1969, he married Danuta Golos. They have eight children together. One of them, Jaroslaw, 37, is a member of the European Parliament with Civic Platform.
In 1970, Wałęsa was sentenced to one year in jail for taking part in a strike where over 80 workers were shot by the police. In 1976, he was fired from his job and blacklisted by the authorities. In 1978, Wałęsa and Andrzej Gwiazda organized an illegal free trade union of Pomerze, for which he got arrested again. In 1980, he returned to the shipyards. On 14 August, he led a strike of shipyard workers. In September, 20 Inter-factory Founding Committees of free trade unions merged into one national organization, Solidarność. Wałęsa was elected its chairman. In December 1981, following the introduction of martial law, he was interned for 11 months near the USSR border. Awarded Nobel Peace Prize in 1983.
In 1988, following repeated demands to recognize Solidarność, he organized one more strike in Gdansk shipyards. After 80 days of workers' action, the government invited the organization to round-table talks. In 1989, Solidarność won free elections to Poland's parliament.
In 1990, Wałęsa was elected president of Poland.
